The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #41by Chuft-Captain » 28.06.2010, 14:38

Fridger,

I'm certainly not making a case, either for, or against technology. There's pros and cons on both sides of that argument, which have been well argued for years ("by football minds immeasurably superior to ours" :lol:)
Sure, you can add assistants, goal-line videos, 4th refs with video replays as in rugby, but where does it all end... are all decisions going to be subject to appeal and frame-by-frame video playback by a 4th ref? Bear in mind that electronic devices are unlikely to be absolutely "perfect" either. (There's been situations where rugby games have been held up for over 5 minutes when the 4th ref couldn't come to a clear decision from frame-by-frame replay).
So I do agree that some improvements would come from changes, but there would be negative aspects as well.
In some sense, I still think that the reliance on human frailty (even if it's the referees frailty) adds to the "drama" of the game....even though I've been unfairly ruled offside many times myself! :wink:
And, sure there's qualitative differences, but in my view the consequences of the outcome should have no bearing on the decision of the ref. He's tasked with making the "correct" decision (...to the best of his ability...) without regard to the qualitative aspect of the outcome.... although I don't disagree with you that the decision of whether a goal has been scored merits some more attention than other decisions.

CC

PS. There's a discussion on this very subject right now, as we speak, on BBCWORLD's World Have Your Say programme.
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Re: The "World Cup Upsets" thread

Post #42by Chuft-Captain » 28.06.2010, 15:09

TERRIER wrote:I have the naive hope that the equation has been balanced, and that the two events have cancelled each other out.
Football karma, you think? ...

TERRIER wrote:We shall never hear about them again!
I doubt this very much... :)

TERRIER wrote:Maybe the England players should be asked to walk past those magnets carrying a container of their choice made from either steel, carbon fibre, or wood (maybe with a sneaky nail hammered in). I would love to see the results!
Perhaps they could even be used to train them to 'run' faster. :twisted:
Boy, are you POMS tough on your players! .... but then considering how much they're paid, that may be fair. :mrgreen:
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #43by Fenerit » 28.06.2010, 17:41

Chuft-Captain wrote:Although it's unfortunate that mistakes like this occur, I don't think there's anything scandalous about it at all. Arguably, part of the beauty of the beautiful game is that we rely (for better or worse) on the officials decision alone. Every football player knows and accepts this when they sign up to play, so when errors inevitably occur, we must accept them.

Now, the referees and sideline officials are only human, and can only rule on what they see. Each event on which they are required to rule is seen only once, at full speed, and "as it occurs" (ie. with no for-knowledge of where it's going to land, etc...).
I would bet that out of a group of 100 people with no prior knowledge of this event, if you asked them to view the incident at full speed as seen from the sideline ref's position, 99 / 100 would probably have no idea which side of the line the ball bounced on.

Let's put ourselves in the sideline ref's shoes:
He's 30 meters away.
His mind was almost certainly focused on detecting off-sides or foul play on the edge of the penalty area.
Suddenly a very fast and powerful shot sends the ball from left to right in his FOV.
Assuming he managed to switch his attention to this sudden event, it's likely IMO that his brain tracked the expected path of the ball to the back of the net or over the top, due to the way our visual perception is fooled by un-predictable events (the brain tries to predict the future position of a fast moving ball).
So, it's quite possible that he didn't even "see" the first deflection down from the crossbar, let alone where it landed. (Remember, he has no for-knowledge that the ball is going to be deflected at such high speed downwards, so he can't be expected to pre-focus on the spot where it landed).

So, I believe that the sideline ref for the reasons above, did not "see" where the ball landed, and he cannot be expected to rule on something he hasn't seen. Incidentally, when the ref viewed the replay of the incident at 1/2 time, apparently his comment was "Oh my God!", but this viewing is "after the fact" with the benefit of hindsight. (Clearly, in real-time he had no idea it had crossed the line from his viewing position either.)

Clearly, we should expect these refs to do the best job they can, but we can't expect them to rule on something they just haven't seen. Anyone who's ever refereed a game knows that it's not as easy as it appears to be from a camera placed in an ideal overview position.

Arguably, a 1/2 time sco0re of 2-2 might have changed the psychology and confidence of the England teams approach to the second half (as they did seem to be making a bit of a comeback from 0-2 down), but at the end of the day, I think Germany were the better team on the day, and deserved the win.
Also, if roles were reversed regarding the incident, I'm sure England would have accepted the non-goal. (That's football...)

In another incident, when Shane Smeltz scored for NZ against Italy, he was technically offside, because the ball received a touch from Winston Reid's head while Smeltz was in an offside position (before the defender touched it).
However, there is no way anyone could have seen the deflection at full-speed, so the goal stands.
I had to watch a frame by frame replay of this incident at least 5 times before I was sure that Reid's head had touched the ball (revealed by a tiny change in the rotation of the ball), but there's no way this could have been seen at full speed. Again, that's football...

The referee's fault of the Mexico-Argentina match is still worse.
1) While there is the discussion whether convalidate the goal or not, is possible to watch the moviole;
2) It's an error to assign to the italians a match in which play Argentina, since traditionally, for several things, it is the second team which they support on. So here there is also a preesistent psicologic factor which can determine mistakes.
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #44by t00fri » 01.07.2010, 10:20

Well, on Saturday, we may forsee a tough game: Argentina <==> Germany in the quarter final.

As a reminder, it had a close parallel in the previous 2006 World Cup: Then Germany played against Argentina as well in the quarter final!

After the regular end, the result was 1:1, and then Germany won 4:2 in the subsequent 11-meter shooting ;-) . These 6 German 2010 players were already part of the 2006 team: Friedrich, Mertesacker, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Klose and Podolski. Miroslav Klose did the goal against Argentina in 2006.

Next, in the semi-final, Germany lost against Italy (0:2). :mrgreen:

Fridger
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #45by TERRIER » 02.07.2010, 12:13

t00fri wrote:CC,

yes I know about this kind of "non-technology" argument. It has been discussed widely. But in my view there's a qualitative difference betwen overlooking a (non-11 meter) foul, say, and mis-judging a goal that might become decisive in a Wold Cup, let alone the effects on the players' psychology...

They could easily add one assistent each close to the goal lines.

Fridger

PS: One might also ask why electronic hit-detectors are operated since decades in fencing tournaments, while in football electronic goal detectors are supposed to destroy the "spirit" of the game...

Am I right in saying they use or have used electronic detectors in Ice Hockey to determine a goal? but not following the sport too closely I don't know how successful this has been. :?:

Meanwhile it appears Mr Blatter has re-opened negotiations on the 'technology in football' debate. I think he wil almost certainly introduce extra officials behind each goal during the 2014 finals - similar to what was used in the Europa League last season. This will keep most people happy to some extent and will show he recognises there is a problem without going against his philosophy of keeping the rules of the sport equal at every level of the game.

I am finding the general opinion throughout British 'medialand' including a lot of phone-in shows, is that even if the unacknowledged goal against Germany had been allowed to stand making the score 2-2, it wouldn't have made any difference to the final outcome. Most people seem to accept England were so poor they'd have been well beaten anyway. There is very little sour krout... er I mean grapes!

Chuft-Captain wrote:Boy, are you POMS tough on your players! .... but then considering how much they're paid, that may be fair. :mrgreen:

It's almost been a relief that we've had 2 (rest) days without any World Cup football, I'm already forgetting the England debacle. :D
In the meantime the failings of our national team heaps more pressure on Andy Murray, who plays Rafael Nadal in todays Wimbledon semi-final. So woe-betide the Scot if he doesn't pull off victory against his superior ranked opponent, or else he could be another candidate for those magnets i feel !

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #46by Chuft-Captain » 02.07.2010, 15:03

Saw this on BBC, pretty interesting point of view: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/8770001.stm
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #47by t00fri » 02.07.2010, 15:51

TERRIER wrote:...
It's almost been a relief that we've had 2 (rest) days without any World Cup football,
...

In Germany these "football-free" days were used to elect a new president (AHA!), after Germany's former president (Koehler) had surprisingly resigned one month ago. By law, a successor has to be found AND elected within 30 days(!), which is challenging. Given the World Cup, it was not easy to move the election in...

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #48by t00fri » 02.07.2010, 16:40

Wow, Holland played very well against Brazil! => 2:1

So one South American top competitor is already eliminated for the semi-final ;-)

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #49by Chuft-Captain » 02.07.2010, 18:49

It wasn't looking good for the Dutch at 1/2 time, but Brazil really lost the plot in the 2nd half.

PS. I'm still picking the Argies to win the cup.

PPS. WTF is with that "psychic" octopus? ... Come-on! - We all know that German Flag's been used to mop up the shrimp cocktail from the floor before going in the tank. :wink:
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #50by t00fri » 02.07.2010, 19:25

Amazing...Africa GO: Ghana leading 1:0 over Uruquay in the break!!
No surprise: The entire African continent is crossing fingers ;-)

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #51by Fenerit » 02.07.2010, 22:56

t00fri wrote:Amazing...Africa GO: Ghana leading 1:0 over Uruquay in the break!!
No surprise: The entire African continent is crossing fingers ;-)

Fridger

Surprise here! Wrong penalty for Ghana at 120 min and Uruguay wins. 8O As for Brazil-Holland, in Ghana-Uruguay were decisive the goalkeepers. Only one error of brazil goalkeeper and Brazil sink. This is usual for Brazil. Just Brazil can make goal to Brazil, and when this happen they undertaken to a really shock.
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #52by TERRIER » 03.07.2010, 10:37

t00fri wrote:Amazing...Africa GO: Ghana leading 1:0 over Uruquay in the break!!
No surprise: The entire African continent is crossing fingers ;-)

Fridger

Good match. It was great to see both teams trying to win the game right up to the end of 90 minutes, and also the end of extra time.
But alas, it was not to be for Ghana or Africa, and their crossed fingers are now helping to play a sad 'tune' on the vuvuzela (As we can see demonstrated by Fenerit....vuu!!!)
Meanwhile Uruguay can enjoy some bragging rights over their more illustrious neighbours for the first time at a World Cup since 1954, but they must give big thanks to Ghana for missing the penalty right at the end of the game.

Chuft-Captain wrote:It wasn't looking good for the Dutch at 1/2 time, but Brazil really lost the plot in the 2nd half.

PS. I'm still picking the Argies to win the cup.

I have to say my heart is expecting the team managed by a man looking like a unscrupulous businessman will win. They've played very well so far, and maybe the 'Hand of God' will help them lift the trophy again, just when it is needed :mrgreen: However my head say's it will be the Dutch, who can't stop winning at the moment - 9 in a row which I think is a new record for them. 11 in a row and the cup is theirs :!:

Fenerit wrote:Surprise here! Wrong penalty for Ghana at 120 min and Uruguay wins. 8O As for Brazil-Holland, in Ghana-Uruguay were decisive the goalkeepers. Only one error of brazil goalkeeper and Brazil sink. This is usual for Brazil. Just Brazil can make goal to Brazil, and when this happen they undertaken to a really shock.

Perhaps I'm being harsh but I thought the goalkeeping for both goals in the Ghana-Uruguay game could have been better.
The 9 wins in a row, plus the 100% wins of their qualifying campaign meant the Dutch win was not such a shock for me, but since then I've heard it's the first time ever in (38) finals matches that Brazil have lost after they were leading at half-time - so a shock result it is!
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #53by Chuft-Captain » 03.07.2010, 14:07

TERRIER wrote:Meanwhile Uruguay.... must give big thanks to Ghana for missing the penalty right at the end of the game.
Not to mention thanking their own player who incurred the penalty in the first place by handling the ball on the goal-line, thus preventing a sure goal which would have won it for Ghana goal with 30 secs to go.
It's not a good look seeing a game won as a result of cheating, and then the culprit being carried off as a hero on the shoulders of his team-mates. :evil:
I think that when a cynical handling of the ball on the goal line prevents a goal (where the goal was otherwise certain to be scored), the referee should have discretion to award a "penalty goal" instead of a penalty.

UPDATE: Germany just went one goal up against Argentina (Thomas Mueller) at 3 minutes played!!!.... Maybe Paul the Octopus has got me beat! :mrgreen:
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #54by t00fri » 03.07.2010, 14:10

Chuft-Captain wrote:
UPDATE: Germany just went one goal up against Argentina (Thomas Mueller) at 3 minutes played!!!.... Maybe Paul the Octopus has got me beat! :mrgreen:

Yes, but only few here seem to realize that the dynamical Germany team has plenty of winning potential ;-)

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #55by Chuft-Captain » 03.07.2010, 14:13

t00fri wrote:
Chuft-Captain wrote:
UPDATE: Germany just went one goal up against Argentina (Thomas Mueller) at 3 minutes played!!!.... Maybe Paul the Octopus has got me beat! :mrgreen:

Yes, but only few here seem to realize that Germany is able to play well ;-)

Fridger
Really?! ... Maybe you're mixing with the wrong crowd. :|

I'm looking forward to a bit of BIFFO in this game!....It's traditional in ARG - GER matches after all. :twisted:
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #56by t00fri » 03.07.2010, 15:29

Chuft-Captain wrote:
t00fri wrote:
Chuft-Captain wrote:
UPDATE: Germany just went one goal up against Argentina (Thomas Mueller) at 3 minutes played!!!.... Maybe Paul the Octopus has got me beat! :mrgreen:

Yes, but only few here seem to realize that Germany is able to play well ;-)

Fridger
Really?! ... Maybe you're mixing with the wrong crowd. :|

I'm looking forward to a bit of BIFFO in this game!....It's traditional in ARG - GER matches after all. :twisted:

Anyone having a problem with Germany's second goal (Klose)? ;-)
So 25 minutes before the end, Germany's 2:0 looks somewhat comfortable now.
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #57by t00fri » 03.07.2010, 15:35

Just in case someone has overlooked Germany's 3:0 goal only a few minutes after the 2:0 shot!

Still the usual doubts? ;-)

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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #58by t00fri » 03.07.2010, 15:49

How about this one: 4:0 for Germany? Klose once again.

DONE with 4:0!

Germany is in the semi-final!!!

F.

PS: Perhaps now Germany's excellent goal record

4:0 against Australia
4:1 against England 1/8 final
4:0 against Argentina 1/4 final

speaks for more among some of you?
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #59by Chuft-Captain » 03.07.2010, 16:01

Well deserved win by Germany. Argentina shut out completely by German defence.

I don't think anyone picked a 4-0 scoreline. (Even Paul the Psychic Octopus predicted a very close game, even penalty shootouts.). Germany seems to like these 4-0 scorelines!

I am a little disappointed however that my predictive abilities were exceeded by an invertebrate with a brain the size of a pea. :oops:

PS. Looks like you're becoming a bit of a football fan now Fridger. (Chess a bit boring now?) :wink:
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Re: The World Cup Controversy thread (renamed)

Post #60by t00fri » 03.07.2010, 16:32

Chuft-Captain wrote:Well deserved win by Germany. Argentina shut out completely by German defence.
...
PS. Looks like you're becoming a bit of a football fan now Fridger. (Chess a bit boring now?) :wink:

You may well be right: I must confess this young German team with its perfectionistic coach, made me watch more games than originally planned ;-) . I think this may well be the best German World Cup team ever. Also the fraction of "Non-Krauts" in the team is 50%, so ... :mrgreen:

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