So, has Windows development of Celestia stopped?

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t00fri
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Post #41by t00fri » 16.06.2005, 21:50

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:
...
But that's the key - you WANT to do it. I don't. I have other things to do with my time than spend it learning how to compile programs.


...expecting --as you have emphasized repeatedly-- other more dedicated volunteers to provide that "service" ready for the "end user"...

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Post #42by Evil Dr Ganymede » 16.06.2005, 21:58

t00fri wrote:...expecting --as you have emphasized repeatedly-- other more dedicated volunteers to provide that "service" ready for the "end user"...


Well what the hell are you doing exactly? You're developing a program for people to use. That's the whole point of development. Or are the Linux, Mac, and Windows users who just enjoy the end result just dead weight to you? You seem to think that everyone on this board who isn't a developer is instead a useless hanger-on of an "end user" - is that really how you see them? You seem to have nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't contribute directly.

You've made your distaste for users and people who don't directly contribute to development very clear as Celestia has got more attention, Fridger. You have, on occasion, wished that those people weren't even here. So it's hardly surprising that you'd sneer at them (but then, you seem to sneer at a lot of people).

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Post #43by t00fri » 16.06.2005, 22:08

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:
t00fri wrote:...expecting --as you have emphasized repeatedly-- other more dedicated volunteers to provide that "service" ready for the "end user"...

Well what the hell are you doing exactly? You're developing a program for people to use. That's the whole point of development. Or are the Linux, Mac, and Windows users who just enjoy the end result just dead weight to you? You seem to think that everyone on this board who isn't a developer is instead a useless hanger-on of an "end user" - is that really how you see them? You seem to have nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't contribute directly.

You've made your distaste for users and people who don't directly contribute to development very clear as Celestia has got more attention, Fridger. You have, on occasion, wished that those people weren't even here. So it's hardly surprising that you'd sneer at them (but then, you seem to sneer at a lot of people).


Actually, I was not the first in this forum to write the above sentence ;-) . Some of us are just irritated about your base attitude in this respect. It's the fact that you tend to make a philosphy about your desinterest in compiling, propagating slogans about "Windows end user culture" and the like.

As you must have realized, I have tried to help many people in the past when they have encountered technical problems. But it's the tone that makes the music as we say...

Bye Fridger

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Post #44by Evil Dr Ganymede » 16.06.2005, 22:18

t00fri wrote:As you must have realized, I have tried to help many people in the past when they have encountered technical problems. But it's the tone that makes the music as we say...


I've seen you being sarcastic and obnoxious at new people asking questions, I've seen you driving people away too with your behaviour and attitude, and I've not seen you contribute much when it comes to developing and helping with ssc and stcs. And I've seen your negative attitude to people who aren't developers, and you have almost no social graces at all. That's not "help".

You're good at program development, and I've never questioned that at all, but you have absolutely no patience for anything or anyone outside that.

Whether the benefits of your development contributions outweigh the harm you've caused by your attitude to people elsewhere is left to the reader.

As for my statements, well, get your head out of Linux for half a second and look around you. Most of the people who use Windows aren't interested in that sort of thing (are you even qualified to talk about Windows at all? I at least have used both OSes, have you?).

The question remains though, which you avoided - do you really see anyone who is an end user as a waste of time and space? You have basically said as much on several occasions.

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Post #45by t00fri » 16.06.2005, 22:38

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:
t00fri wrote:As you must have realized, I have tried to help many people in the past when they have encountered technical problems. But it's the tone that makes the music as we say...

I've seen you being sarcastic and obnoxious at new people asking questions, I've seen you driving people away too with your behaviour and attitude, and I've not seen you contribute much when it comes to developing and helping with ssc and stcs. And I've seen your negative attitude to people who aren't developers, and you have almost no social graces at all. That's not "help".
....

Just to randomly select my "help" of today
http://www.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7444
ignoring here additional PM mail today...

Anything wrong with it? I was even the only one who cared so far...
EDG wrote:Most of the people who use Windows aren't interested in that sort of thing (are you even qualified to talk about Windows at all? I at least have used both OSes, have you?).
I just wrote yesterday in a post addressed to you:

t00fri wrote:Since I work /both/ with Linux and Windows in parallel I think I can judge and compare pretty well. All this works with ease.


Since about 1 1/2 years (!) I compile Celestia regularly also on my Windows XP Laptop which is an equally simple affair as under Linux, once one "understands". I also happen to know quite a bit on the system's level of Windows ;-) .

All my computers at home and in my office are configured for dual boot since many years. If I have to communicate with funding agencies or in other administrative matters i surely got to switch to Windows. So what. To some approximation it's all about the same...

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Post #46by Cham » 16.06.2005, 23:08

Please guys, :oops:

Don't start a flame war. Just relax, drink a beer (or two).

8)
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Post #47by julesstoop » 16.06.2005, 23:10

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:
BlindedByTheLight wrote:Me... I'm a Mac user. And if we ass-backwards, rich-old-lady users who don't know a limo driver from a mouse driver can figure out how to build our own versions of Celestia (eyes glazing over and all X10 as we read up on the subject) with only 1/90th of the support out there from fellow platform users... well, I have no doubts the average Windows User can do it, too.

With a little effort, of course... :)

Isn't Mac OS X basically a pretty front end for a custom version of Linux now?

Anyway, you want to tinker with Celestia, that's great. But that's the key - you WANT to do it. I don't. I have other things to do with my time than spend it learning how to compile programs.


Please stop being offended.
The present iteration of Mac OS X is much more user friendly than Windows XP ever aspired to be. Linux has as much to do with OS X as Solaris has.
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Post #48by t00fri » 16.06.2005, 23:10

Cham wrote:Please guys, :oops:

Don't start a flame war. Just relax, drink a beer (or two).

8)


I don't think I am flaming. Do I? It's certainly not intended. I am just answering EDG's posts in "low adrenaline mode".

Bye Fridger

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Post #49by ElChristou » 16.06.2005, 23:15

[quote="t00fri"]...in "low adrenaline mode"....

:D :D :D :D :wink:
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Post #50by Evil Dr Ganymede » 17.06.2005, 00:00

t00fri wrote:Just to randomly select my "help" of today
http://www.celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7444
ignoring here additional PM mail today...

Yes, that's development help. As I said, that's as far as your actually constructive, useful help goes.


t00fri wrote:I don't think I am flaming. Do I? It's certainly not intended. I am just answering EDG's posts in "low adrenaline mode".


No, you're trolling for a response. You're the one going on about how stupid I must be or how lazy I am or making sneery comments at me.

Don't give me that 'it's not intended' bullshit. You seem to enjoy pissing me off and insulting my intelligence.

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Post #51by ElChristou » 17.06.2005, 00:31

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:...Don't give me that 'it's not intended' bullshit. You seem to enjoy pissing me off and insulting my intelligence...


EDG, supposing this is true, why the hell do you continue on this? Can you pass or do you really need to have the ending word? You say you have better to do than spending time in Celestia dev/community so what?

I think this Thread should be locked, because all has been said...
You're problem as seen all over the thread do not depend of the use of osX, Linux or Windows, you're problem is that you seems to consider yourself as a end-user, so I think that like all end-user you should patiently wait the next officail release.

Just an advice...
When I want something or have a problem specific to my os I always begin the subject of my topic with something like "osX problem:..." or "Question to osX users" etc. You should do the same right now and try to contact a good mind to compile for you the last CVS...
Now if no one responde the call... well just be patient (I know sometime it's hard...)...

Bye
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Post #52by t00fri » 17.06.2005, 00:36

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:
t00fri wrote:Just to randomly select my "help" of today
http://www.celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7444
ignoring here additional PM mail today...

Yes, that's development help. As I said, that's as far as your actually constructive, useful help goes.



Chris is usually much less active in helping. He typically answers at best when somebody has a graphics/OpenGl related question. Christophe also tends to help specifically in Linux compiling matters. So I think I am pretty much in line with other developers. Developing is quite time intensive...

So why are you specially complaining about me, if I mainly help people about installing Linux, and or compiling? Many many people have used my 'virtualtex' script to cut VT's, for example. It's not part of Celestia. It's a service I have offered to make life easier for some... so I really don't understand your previous reproaches. I guess you don't want me to look up among my ~2700 posts in this forum all my 100's of helping posts by means of a Perl script, do you? ;-)

Many answers about the rest is to be found in excellent manuals by Frank and in the perfectly organized material and tutorials by Selden. The Celestia manual meanwhile exists in many languages. The entire docs are easy to find at ML.

One problem is that many "end users" are unwilling to read these. Which is really a pity. When I realize this sort of attitude, I might indeed get a bit impatient, I admit.


READING seems to be OUT ...

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Post #53by t00fri » 17.06.2005, 00:46

Last not least, I also think....


Let's have this thread locked. It leads nowhere.
I have tried to respond to EDG's reproaches in a reasonably calm manner, but now I am getting tired.

Good night everyone ;-)

Bye Fridger

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Post #54by Evil Dr Ganymede » 17.06.2005, 01:01

ElChristou wrote:
Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:...Don't give me that 'it's not intended' bullshit. You seem to enjoy pissing me off and insulting my intelligence...

EDG, supposing this is true, why the hell do you continue on this?


You know what, I don't know. I'm bloody sick of Fridger's continual insults and sneering, and his attitude. His behaviour has singlehandedly put me off doing anything for Celestia. Selden's uselessness as a moderator also has not helped - he had ample opportunity to take action against Fridger on many opportunities but chickened out all the time because he's intimidated by him.

Screw you to hell, Fridger. You win. I'm outta here.

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Post #55by BlindedByTheLight » 17.06.2005, 01:04

NOTE: I was writing the below before the last few exchanges above (but I agree, lock it! Oh... and Selden, I think, in my short time here, you're doing a great job! :)


Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:Isn't Mac OS X basically a pretty front end for a custom version of Linux now?

Yes, I guess so. And it is SUCH a pretty front end, 99.9% of the people who use have NO idea what goes on beneath the surface. The Mac OS GUI may be BASED on Linux... but, for all intents and purposes, to the people who use it... well, Linux who? Which is really a moot point anyway. In any case...

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:Anyway, you want to tinker with Celestia, that's great. But that's the key - you WANT to do it. I don't. I have other things to do with my time than spend it learning how to compile programs.

No, you are mistaken. I do NOT "want" to compile Celestia. Not in the slightest way, shape, or form. What I want - EXACTLY like you, it seems, is to:

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:get something that compares to the latest versions of the program

...and kudos to you for going on this board and asking for it. However, a cyber hand-slap to you for responding to this:

hank wrote:The new Celestia code isn't ready yet for a general, non-development release intended for the masses... the recent prerelease versions now available for Linux and Mac users are strictly experimental, development builds... I would much prefer to see Chris devote the time he has to implementing Celestia enhancements that will benefit all users, rather than wasting his time and talent building prereleases for Windows users.

...with, essentially, this:

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:Either you want this program to be used and accessible by a lot of people (who use the OS that is a lot more popular than Linux or Mac OS is) , or you want it to be stuck in the much smaller realm of those people who know how to program.

...like it's Hank's job (or ANY of the developers' jobs) to make sure every single nightly build of Celestia is available for end-users. I mean, Hank wrote, "The new Celestia code isn't ready yet for a general, non-development release intended for the masses". What could be clearer than that?

Yet you still wrote:

EDG wrote:What I don't understand is why these more advanced prereleases that apparently have been worked on for the past year are available for Linux and Mac sides but not for Windows.

He explained it, others have explained it - but you keep seeming to miss the point. So I'll try one last time.

A) The incremental builds are not ready for masses (yes, there were SOME prelease builds and those WERE ready for the masses... not all of them are, however)

B) It is a waste of time and resources (in short supply in the open source world) to MAKE EVERY BUILD ready for the masses. Six prereleases were released.

C) Aside from the waste of resources, it is confusing enough when trouble-shooting and reporting bugs to discern between 1.32 and 1.4pre6 - can you just imagine how impossible it would be if there were builds EVERY TIME new code was uploaded to CVS?

D) The Linux and Mac unofficial pre-releases are available because individual END USERS just like you (actually, I'm NOT just like you... I've read your posts - you know a helluva more about this crap than me) took the time to make their own builds, in their own time completely outside the regular development world of Celestia.

You might want to re-read that italicized bit again.

EDG wrote:Surely someone can bring the Windows version up to speed?! Unless I'm misunderstanding something fundamental about how the development process works?

Yep... if you want it, that someone is YOU. That's how the development process works.

And, I gotta be honest, if you are such an end user, who has no time or inclincation to learn how to build your own Celestia, then one might also infer you probably have no business using such unofficial software because...

beta software IS NOT for regular old, plug and play, end-users.

It is for more advanced users. The official pre-releases that the developers have kindly (KINDLY) made available to us are buggy enough. The unofficial versions that I have been compiling... are potentially even worse.

And, since, as you pointed out, my guess is the developers DO...

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:want this program to be used and accessible by a lot of people


...then the last thing they'd want to do is release versions NOT READY FOR THE MASSES and risk giving Celestia a buggy, bad name.

Final Point: You and I - as completely non-professional are in no position whatsoever to judge what IS ready and is NOT ready. That is completely up to the developers, right? Or.... no? You know better than they do? And if you do, we're back to square one... which then is why aren't you just compiling your own version again?

Bottom line, you are asking for something understable but that is above and beyond what developers ought to be providing. Yet you see others getting (of their OWN steam) and, for some reason, are now trying to justify why the developers ought to provide YOU with the same candy. But....

...is that really fair? Or is it... dare I say... lazy? :)

(just kidding, but I couldn't resist - perhaps I should have written an unjustified sense of entitlement...)
Steven Binder, Mac OS X 10.4.10

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Post #56by hank » 17.06.2005, 02:41

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:Screw you to hell, Fridger. You win. I'm outta here.

That should solve the problem.

Very sad. EDG's constructive contributions will be missed. His inability to refrain from personal attacks on Fridger will not. Too bad it had to come to this.

- Hank

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Post #57by ElChristou » 17.06.2005, 03:28

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:...I'm bloody sick of Fridger's continual insults and sneering, and his attitude. His behaviour has singlehandedly put me off doing anything for Celestia. Selden's uselessness as a moderator also has not helped - he had ample opportunity to take action against Fridger on many opportunities but chickened out all the time because he's intimidated by him.

Screw you to hell, Fridger. You win. I'm outta here.


I really cannot imagine what happen in this famous "Antartic I don't know what" thread a few weeks before my subscription to the forum...
(it's a pity this thread has been deleted... I have just heard some tiny comments, it sounds like a Legend indeed, nobody wants to talk... quiet misterious...)
I suppose your anger comes from this, but really I cannot imagine how people can turn them "hot" at more than 10000 km of distance...
Fridger has his form of being, you have yours (perhaps not so different), I have mine, and all this make the human relationship interesting...
If people are able of some reflexion, try not to judge at first sight, an have a bit more of compassion, I think thing could be a bit better on this fuck.. planet...

Just a reflexion...
I'm living in a country where still you can see in the street childs working to earn some little money to survive (generally exploited by their own parents...), where the leak in education is the base of all kind of problems (sociocultural as socioeconomic)... (and it's not the worse contry in the world for that) so imagine when I see two big boys graduated, reacting (sometimes) as childs, what can be my toughts...

Coming back here, I'm thinking now in the younger users overhere... Can it be possible to avoid those kind of "flaming war" as Cham said? Just, not to give bad example...
Also, when I say "bad habits" it's not for nothing... you don't want (for any reasons -and I will understand) to make the effort in something? Ok, but then, please, keep the reflexion for you or try to find better words... just to level up the discussion...

Hope I'm not too boring tonight, I'm tired so I go to sleep...
Goodnight

Bye

PS: About your reflexion on Selden attitude, I don't really understand (in reality I have no idea of what you mean...), for me he is doing a good job...
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Post #58by Cham » 17.06.2005, 03:30

*** THREAD LOCKED ***
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Post #59by t00fri » 17.06.2005, 08:37

Good morning,

I am sorry to see EDG react this way. Let me emphasize that I am /definitely/ sorry to see EDG leaving. This is NO joke.

When I wrote my last post late at night yesterday, I was about to propose a total "RESET" to EDG, yet I was too tired to formulate it such that he might not have misinterpreted (again) what I intended to write!

So I proposed to lock the thread instead, since I /had/ to go to bed.

Selden and I have exchanged some PM after the preceeding thread locking some days ago. My prediction was that a similar event will certainly happen again, unfortunately. EDG's and my personalities really seem to be sort of "orthogonal" as we math-infected people tend to say ;-) . I also have no idea why he and I have never managed after our many previous clashes to simply ignore each other.

The best thing I can come up with is that we partly seem to have quite similar interests! ;-)

Our "problematic" relation actually dates much further back than this "Antarctic" blow out, where I was so upset as to erase all my /hundreds/ of posts in the Motherlode forum that served as an interim platform while this forum was hacked and non-functioning.

In my defense I think this kind of events tend to happen ONLY with EDG. Certainly during the last 6 months or so. I thought I also have learned some lessons and have seriously tried to be more considerate when translating from my mother tongue into English. With ~2700 posts and far too little time available, I am sure some of my previous wordings might have been a little too "harsh" for the high anglosaxon standards of politeness at least. My rather "direct manners" --so to speak-- might well give rise to some unplanned emotions occasionally.

Let me repeat, that notably in these recent times where this "forum tends to fall asleep" quite often, the lack of EDG's regular and diverse posts will clearly constitute another unfortunate step "downwards"

Bye Fridger


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