Celestia development volunteers?

General discussion about Celestia that doesn't fit into other forums.
ElChristou
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Post #61by ElChristou » 20.10.2007, 23:21

hank wrote:I think a wiki would be best suited for this. Anyone willing to set one up?


Hank, this must be done by someone who now well Celestia code structure to build the Wiki structure. I don't think whatever person will achieve something convenient for you dev guys...
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yeus
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Post #62by yeus » 20.10.2007, 23:28

All I can say is: I myself as one of the volunteers will only start working, if I get a very specific task and access (for example as a thread in this forum [preferably], or a wiki) to some organized form of TODO-list, which ensures that I am not working on something which is already WIP.
This probably applies to all the other volunteers, too.
And as I have no clue about the state of the celestia-project right now, someone who knows the code whould have to make that list.
So *plz* God send us *the one* who makes that list
(I think the forum solution would be much better, right now, becuase it involves much less work than a wiki, and i made the experience if something requires a lot of work poeple won't like it and won't use it).

Greetings, Tom

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hank
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Post #63by hank » 20.10.2007, 23:33

ElChristou wrote:
hank wrote:I think a wiki would be best suited for this. Anyone willing to set one up?
Hank, this must be done by someone who now well Celestia code structure to build the Wiki structure. I don't think whatever person will achieve something convenient for you dev guys...

The first step is to set up the wiki. Chris has already set up a wiki at SourceForge but edits there are limited to official developers. I think we need a more open wiki to coordinate broader participation. Someone other than a developer should set up and manage it (so developers can be doing other things).

- Hank

ElChristou
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Post #64by ElChristou » 20.10.2007, 23:37

hank wrote:The first step is to set up the wiki. Chris has already set up a wiki at SourceForge but edits there are limited to official developers. I think we need a more open wiki to coordinate broader participation. Someone other than a developer should set up and manage it (so developers can be doing other things).

- Hank


Then if you or another dev could describe what is needed (structure), perhaps a good soul will do that? :?
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hank
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Post #65by hank » 20.10.2007, 23:56

ElChristou wrote:
hank wrote:The first step is to set up the wiki. Chris has already set up a wiki at SourceForge but edits there are limited to official developers. I think we need a more open wiki to coordinate broader participation. Someone other than a developer should set up and manage it (so developers can be doing other things).

Then if you or another dev could describe what is needed (structure), perhaps a good soul will do that? :?

Once the wiki is set up, anyone (including developers) can contribute structure and content.

- Hank

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Post #66by BobHegwood » 21.10.2007, 00:02

hank wrote:
Once the wiki is set up, anyone (including developers) can contribute structure and content.

- Hank


I can confirm this, since they even let ME add text to the Celestia Wiki...

You'll probably be able to tell what's mine. Hee, hee.... Seriously though,
anyone can help with the Wiki. Damn-good idea.
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ElChristou
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Post #67by ElChristou » 21.10.2007, 00:06

hank wrote:...Someone other than a developer should set up and manage it (so developers can be doing other things).


Sorry, by "manage" I thought you wanted to say that a non dev should create the structure and edit the pages...
I never touch to any Wiki (in fact yes, one time on Celestia's one) but if it's just a question of setting one up, I'm almost sure you could have done that the time of posting your 2 last messages... no?
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hank
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Post #68by hank » 21.10.2007, 00:18

BobHegwood wrote:
hank wrote:
Once the wiki is set up, anyone (including developers) can contribute structure and content.

- Hank

I can confirm this, since they even let ME add text to the Celestia Wiki...

You'll probably be able to tell what's mine. Hee, hee.... Seriously though,
anyone can help with the Wiki. Damn-good idea.

If someone wants to volunteer to set up the wiki, they can go to http://www.wikispaces.com and set one up. It's very easy. Just register as a new user and create a new space. (Unfortunately the name "celestia" is taken. I'd suggest "celestians" as an alternative.) Once the wiki has been set up, you'll have to do a little bit of management, such as adding new members and organizers (assistant managers) and doing periodic backups to your local disk. It shouldn't be a lot of work. Anyone want to volunteer?

- Hank

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Post #69by ElChristou » 21.10.2007, 00:22

hank wrote:If someone wants to volunteer to set up the wiki, they can go to http://www.wikispaces.com and set one up. It's very easy. Just register as a new user and create a new space. (Unfortunately the name "celestia" is taken. I'd suggest "celestians" as an alternative.) Once the wiki has been set up, you'll have to do a little bit of management, such as adding new members and organizers (assistant managers) and doing periodic backups to your local disk. It shouldn't be a lot of work. Anyone want to volunteer?


Even if I don't believe much in this Wiki stuff (for the dev) I'm almost tempted to set it up hoping I'm wrong...

If no one do this between now and tomorrow, I'll take the task.
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hank
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Post #70by hank » 21.10.2007, 00:26

ElChristou wrote:If no one do this between now and tomorrow, I'll take the task.

If someone decides to do it, just be sure to announce it here first so there's no duplication of effort.

- Hank

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Post #71by ElChristou » 21.10.2007, 15:01

Apart this Wikispaces, someone knows a similar web based system but add free?
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hank
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Post #72by hank » 21.10.2007, 15:21

ElChristou wrote:Apart this Wikispaces, someone knows a similar web based system but add free?

Do you find the ads obtrusive? One advantage of WikiSpaces, although perhaps a minor one, is that it uses the same wiki software as the SourceForge wiki. (SourceForge also has ads. Should Celestia not use SourceForge?)

If someone could volunteer their site to host a wiki, the MediaWiki software used by WikiBook is a free download, but it requires Apache/PHP/MySQL experience to install.

- Hank

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Post #73by ElChristou » 21.10.2007, 15:42

Indeed, more I think in this choice more I find it inadequate.
Hank, as you seems to prefer a Wiki just like Chris, correct me if I'm wrong.

A Wiki is a very good way to create and share documentation.
Now do the dev process need documentation?
To me the typical dev process is:

- Someone had an idea and present it to the dev team
- the dev team discuss the idea
- IF consensus the new code is added to CVS

- testers compile the new code and give feedback
- the dev team debug

Is that correct?
To me this is a discussion. Nothing less nothing more.
What better than a forum to do this?
Could you explain me please how a Wiki will help in such process? (I feel I miss something... :?)
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Post #74by BobHegwood » 21.10.2007, 16:37

ElChristou wrote:To me this is a discussion. Nothing less nothing more.
What better than a forum to do this?
Could you explain me please how a Wiki will help in such process? (I feel I miss something... :?)


Chris? Mayhap the Wiki could be used to point potential NEW developers
in the right direction? Just a thought. Developers - in general - are quite
intimidating to those of us without brains. :lol:
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hank
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Post #75by hank » 21.10.2007, 16:57

ElChristou wrote:Indeed, more I think in this choice more I find it inadequate.
Hank, as you seems to prefer a Wiki just like Chris, correct me if I'm wrong.

A Wiki is a very good way to create and share documentation.
Now do the dev process need documentation?
To me the typical dev process is ... a discussion. Nothing less nothing more.
What better than a forum to do this?
Could you explain me please how a Wiki will help in such process? (I feel I miss something... :?)

The forum is fine for discussions, and should continue to be used for that. The wiki would not replace the forum, but would supplement it. A Wiki is a good way to create and share information.The wiki could include information about what tasks need to be done, what people are working on which tasks, etc. It could include information about who has what skills and who is familiar with what parts of the code, as well as information about how the code is structured and how it works. It could include instructions for new developers as to how to perform various development tasks. It could include feature specifications, preliminary designs, test plans, bug reports, etc.

- Hank

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selden
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Post #76by selden » 21.10.2007, 18:51

Hank,

I think you aren't mentioning the major operational difference, which perhaps is what is being overlooked.

A Wiki page is a single document, with all of its information presented at once.

You don't have to wade through a long thread looking for each of the different comments that people have made.

Instead of people making individual, independent postings saying "I finished working on the GUI's lighting menu", for example, each of them would edit an appropriate GUI documentation page as their task is completed, changing that page's contents to describe the current status of the software.
Selden

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Post #77by t00fri » 21.10.2007, 19:00

Selden,

this is certainly correct. But on the downside, maintaining a Wiki constitutes quite a bit of additional administrative load, notably for people who are not in the habit of formulating text quickly and concisely. The value of a Wiki decreases quickly to ZERO if this maintaining task is not done regularly over an extended period of time by ALL people involved!

Personally I just don't believe that this task will succeed on the long run as a user community effort! It may well succeed among a compact developer team, for example.

But the good thing is, we don't have to speculate here ;-) . In a short while we will see whether I was wrong...

Bye Fridger
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t00fri
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Post #78by t00fri » 21.10.2007, 19:08

Here are some "encouraging" data as to the growth of our "developer" Wiki at SourgeForge that Chris opened on Oct. 10, i.e. 11 days ago.

On that day Chris added a few useful references and one day later, Hank wrote some very few lines

Welcome to the Celestia Development Wiki.

Since those two initial days our developer Wiki has remained UNTOUCHED. :roll:

Hmm...

Bye Fridger
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selden
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Post #79by selden » 21.10.2007, 19:21

Fridger,

Well, after all, you would be one of the people contributing to it. As would Vincent and Christophe, both of whom also have updated the CVS archive recently. But if it isn't appropriate for your working methods, and if you guys don't use it, then it won't be useful. I think that's called a "self fulfilling prophesy." :)
Selden

ElChristou
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Post #80by ElChristou » 21.10.2007, 19:24

Hank, in theory I suppose you must be right just like Chris example in his old job. Now we are not in a commercial structure, so no one is bound to use the system and do the job.
What you are proposing is first a bunch of work, lots of doc to write. Who will do that? You dev men? Sorry I doubt... (you have already lot to do outside Celestia, so when you are in better use your time in coding)

So here is my last attempt to illustrate a forum based solution; as I was playing with PhpBB2 I set a quick example of what I find could work pretty well.

Positive points:

- System already known by everybody
- Easy an quick to set up
- Easy way to post code/images/follow discussions
- Easy way to search info
- All in one (one place to visit for all dev task (apart CVS of course))

To illustrate I took some of Hank previous point. This is a quick draft, must not be seen as what it should be. Dev men should decide how to set it up exactly.

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That's is what I think is a plausible solution...
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