New content and interactivity in next Celestia

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #21by ElChristou » 11.03.2009, 17:21

Cham wrote:
ElChristou wrote:could you tell us how you would see such feature? Or do you mean showing the position of the observer (OR in reality of any body)?

Well, consider this : Suppose we have a way to mark an observer and we have (as an example) three splitted views. Marking the observer in one view should automatically mark it in all other "splitted" views at the same time. And since there are other views as well (3 splitted views in this example), we then have other markers in all the views. The markers should then be identified with different colors and/or symbols so we don't get confused with all the observers marks. For three splitted views, we get two observer-marks in each view.

But the above proposal is NOT a simple splitted view; marker, guides/grids are independent from the normal OGL view. This GPO stuff become a feature well define with it's own rules. For example, you won't be allowed to do anything in the GPO view apart zooming and rotating (these restrictions are examples, perhaps wanted, perhaps not, we have to decide) and you wouldn't have control on the scripted behaviors depending the distance. So no multiple markers, until we decide new functionality of such tool... (for example marking 2 or more objects for GPO in the main OGL window would change the view in the GPO window on the fly taking the center of the space delimited by the marked object as the point to track and so showing a global view of the selected system)
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #22by Cham » 11.03.2009, 17:28

ElChristou wrote:But the above proposal is NOT a simple splitted view; marker, guides/grids are independent from the normal OGL view. This GPO stuff become a feature well define with it's own rules. For example, you won't be allowed to do anything in the GPO view apart zooming and rotating (these restrictions are examples, perhaps wanted, perhaps not, we have to decide) and you wouldn't have control on the scripted behaviors depending the distance. So no multiple markers, until we decide new functionality of such tool... (for example marking 2 or more objects for GPO in the main OGL window would change the view in the GPO window on the fly taking the center of the space delimited by the marked object as the point to track and so showing a global view of the selected system)

Sorry ElChristou, but your English is very crude today (or maybe it's just me...). I simply don't understand what you mean here. I'm unable to see anything usefull in what you're trying to describe. It's just too vague.
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #23by ElChristou » 11.03.2009, 17:46

Cham wrote:
ElChristou wrote:But the above proposal is NOT a simple splitted view; marker, guides/grids are independent from the normal OGL view. This GPO stuff become a feature well define with it's own rules. For example, you won't be allowed to do anything in the GPO view apart zooming and rotating (these restrictions are examples, perhaps wanted, perhaps not, we have to decide) and you wouldn't have control on the scripted behaviors depending the distance. So no multiple markers, until we decide new functionality of such tool... (for example marking 2 or more objects for GPO in the main OGL window would change the view in the GPO window on the fly taking the center of the space delimited by the marked object as the point to track and so showing a global view of the selected system)

Sorry ElChristou, but your English is very crude today (or maybe it's just me...). I simply don't understand what you mean here. I'm unable to see anything usefull in what you're trying to describe. It's just too vague.

Sorry, I try again:

Imagine the GPO feature completely independent from the normal OGL windows and it's eventual splitted views.
Marking and object the classic way in the OGL windows won't affect the GPO window. In the same way, GPO features like grids/guides are not displayed in the OGL window.
The GPO window is a new tool which purpose is helping to understand the relation of a point of interest (observer or body) related to greater scales. You would not be able to do anything in the GPO window that would not be decided by the dev; as example for now, zooming in/out and rotating. The scripted features inside the GPO window such the automated display of guides/grids related to distance cannot be override within Celestia.

So you would not see multiples markers as you where referring to in your previous post, unless they are part of a wanted feature inside the GPO window. As example of such eventuality, we could think in a GPO marker feature (in the OGL view, probably at contextual level) then you could mark several bodies for the GPO windows. As the GPO track something to zoom in/out and rotate around, in such case it would be the center of the space delimited by the marker bodies.

Better? :| :oops:
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #24by ElChristou » 11.03.2009, 18:58

But do we really need both views of the point of interest? As proposed by Imy, a switch from normal to GPO view could be another solution...
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #25by Imy » 12.03.2009, 09:57

About GPO :

Your GPO looks like a GP-S screen, doesn't it? Personally, I don't like this name GPO : it's not really obvious for common users ; he must think : what this kind of stuff again?

I think two views are useful, Vincent's one for quick observation like quick info in balloon when you move mouse over an element in common programs, and your GPO for more advanced purpose like, larger first, and more precised information like other object names, zoom slider... If with the first solution we have only one view, GPO can shows differents angle view in the same time. Do that means, we have to think about a third localisation level with my all screen solution? It sures that the windows has to be limited and only rotating and zooming would be allowed. Maybe, selecting names for select another destination too... The windows has not be considered as another observer views but more than a map : the difference is that all views are linked observers. If you want anothers views, you can edit yourself more precisely, with split views...

This kind of stuff may be also useful for surface localisation : when you are on a planet what about keeping an eye where you are on the sphere?

About Interactivity :
-A difficult thing about first uses : why can't we select different objects and then change common properties like orbits viewed or not with mouse?
-What about a general pop up menu (clicking on third mouse button for example) for universe and observer objects where you can quickly change own common properties? (for example Telescope view or not, magnitude limit with a local slider...)
-Reducing keyboard shortcuts or using mouse solutions more obvious, easier to keep in mind!
-Why on an object pop menu, isn't there a "goto on surface" option, particularly for planets?
-When you watch a star outside of solar system, and then want to point where earth (your home) is now, you can't, you have to select sun, is obvious for common users?

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #26by ElChristou » 12.03.2009, 11:01

Imy wrote:About GPO :

Your GPO looks like a GP-S screen, doesn't it? Personally, I don't like this name GPO : it's not really obvious for common users ; he must think : what this kind of stuff again?

As I said earlier, "GPO" (for global positioning overview) is a name that pops in my mind in a micro second and someone IF this stuff become reality will have to find a better name.

Imy wrote:I think two views are useful, Vincent's one for quick observation like quick info in balloon when you move mouse over an element in common programs, and your GPO for more advanced purpose like, larger first, and more precised information like other object names, zoom slider... If with the first solution we have only one view, GPO can shows differents angle view in the same time. Do that means, we have to think about a third localisation level with my all screen solution? It sures that the windows has to be limited and only rotating and zooming would be allowed. Maybe, selecting names for select another destination too... The windows has not be considered as another observer views but more than a map : the difference is that all views are linked observers. If you want anothers views, you can edit yourself more precisely, with split views...

As the purpose of the new UI is to keep things, easy and intuitive, I believe we need to find an optimum proposal for this feature. Perso I think whatever it is it shouldn't be with several "levels". One unique system should be adopted, thumb, split or switch of the entire screen.

This kind of stuff may be also useful for surface localisation : when you are on a planet what about keeping an eye where you are on the sphere?

Imy wrote:About Interactivity :
-A difficult thing about first uses : why can't we select different objects and then change common properties like orbits viewed or not with mouse?
In what kind of use are you thinking of?


Imy wrote:-What about a general pop up menu (clicking on third mouse button for example) for universe and observer objects where you can quickly change own common properties? (for example Telescope view or not, magnitude limit with a local slider...)
I'm not sure to follow you on this one; the wheel (mouse) gives and optimal solution to travel; perhaps a key could change this function to FOV?

Imy wrote:-Reducing keyboard shortcuts or using mouse solutions more obvious, easier to keep in mind!
Yep, clearly for basic users, keyboard shortcuts are not ideal. We have to find here some new ways via UI for such mouse based control.


Imy wrote:-Why on an object pop menu, isn't there a "goto on surface" option, particularly for planets?
Could be...

Imy wrote:-When you watch a star outside of solar system, and then want to point where earth (your home) is now, you can't, you have to select sun, is obvious for common users?
That's means a "Show Home" feature?
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #27by duds26 » 12.03.2009, 15:11

ElChristou wrote:The topic of this thread is linked to the incoming unified UI (http://shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13551) but need to be developed.

Chris wrote:- A *huge* problem for new Celestia users is simply figuring out what to do. Space is big: there's lots to see, but there are many more places that are very boring indeed. The ability to freely explore the universe is a big part of the Celestia's appeal for me, but the program should also have facilities to guide users to interesting views and provide some explanation for what's on the screen. The way to do this is by expanding the scope of add-ons: instead of just catalogs of objects, there should be a way of integrating them with scripts, camera views, and explanatory text. Already many add-ons come packaged with scripts and HTML files with text and cel URL links. This stuff should be accessible within Celestia and clearly associated with the add-on. The same facilities could be used for the standard Celestia package. It would be a boon for both hobbyist users and educators.

This facilities/features should cover the whole possibilities of Celestia, not just addons as seen previously.
Let's try here to define what could be this new features.

Example:
- You have Sol in front of you; a feature linked to it could be "show system" and Celestia would display the main orbits and labels.
- Sol again, another feature could be to display grids or whatever guides related to the solar system.
- Imagine a star with companions; we could have a feature display a synthetic representation of our solar system for quick comparison.

More ideas?

Aren't these stuff more something for a barycenter?
Would be nice to have barycenters visible (with marker/symbol for a good visibility) and fullfil some of the functions you have in mind.
It's better suited than just the dominant object like the sun, if there are multiple objects.
Systems with multiple stars would also not be a problem if barycenters are used.
(which star would you pick? The heaviest, biggest, brightest,...)

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #28by duds26 » 12.03.2009, 15:20

Cham wrote:
ElChristou wrote:could you tell us how you would see such feature? Or do you mean showing the position of the observer (OR in reality of any body)?

Well, consider this : Suppose we have a way to mark an observer and we have (as an example) three splitted views. Marking the observer in one view should automatically mark it in all other "splitted" views at the same time. And since there are other views as well (3 splitted views in this example), we then have other markers in all the views. The markers should then be identified with different colors and/or symbols so we don't get confused with all the observers marks. For three splitted views, we get two observer-marks in each view.

I think this could be very usefull, especially if there's a color code associated to each observer-mark.

Maybe the views should be independant also, so we could have markers turned ON in one view, and markers turned OFF in another view.

A very good way of handling things.


Using the different colors and/or symbols for frame borders would make everything very clear and understandable.

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #29by ElChristou » 12.03.2009, 15:23

Yep, a "Show system" feature could be generalized to barycenter too.
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #30by ElChristou » 13.03.2009, 13:00

For now we have:

Features for better interactivity and ease of use:

- Show system (attached to stars or barycenters)
- Show grids/guides (attached to whatever bodies, need to be developped)
- Compare feature, can be for system - solar system vs extra solar systems - and perhaps for other bodies too?
- Global positioning overview (or whatever name you want)
- Contextual Goto surface features for planets/moons
- Show Home

Content (script and addons based):

- Transits and occultations
- Binary and multiple star systems
- Transiting planets
- Moon classification of the outer planets
- Asteroids classification (troyans etc...)
- Lagrange points

Is that all we can find on this topic?
What of this ideas should be keep what are the ones to forget?
Imy, there is a few unanswered questions on your last post, still want to develop?
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #31by Imy » 13.03.2009, 14:18

About GPO :
it shouldn't be with several "levels".

For Sure, it would be the best idea. However, can we have as much information in a little window as we have in a larger one? Do you think that a lot star names (using for reference when you are in intersellar locations) would be readable enough in a thumb? Do that mean thumb is not a good solution? Thumb is a quick stuff and this is why it's interesting element. Thumb and your GPO could be the same stuff, only differents scale views : thumbs for a quick view, with few reference elements to locate (like only planet, only planet orbits and names for solar system, or only galaxy, not more), and a larger view few with more elements, grids... Could Celestia show sizeable space windows?

-A difficult thing about first uses : why can't we select different objects and then change common properties like orbits viewed or not with mouse?
In what kind of use are you thinking of?

Everyone that uses a computer today, has already managed its own files in explorer. These are objects and everyone enjoys selecting easily severals with mouse (while pressing special keyboard button) and changing in "one click" each propriety (commons in selected objects). Surely, users discover Celestia understand that planets and moons are similar such objects. They decide to focus on only two moons of Jupiter's large moon system, they want to compare quickly they orbits and their trajectories for instance. They want only to show orbits of these two elements, and why not their own frames too? And they don't want learning and make script for only that!

That's means a "Show Home" feature?

Why not? All problem is knowing what is exactly our home ! Today, it's seems (using 'H') that Sun is our home and not Earth. However, Earth appears to me, more obvious home than hot Sun! But it's true that Sun is a better reference when you're out of solar system. Even in this case, it depends what user want to do : select home and no more, or goto home?
If you select home only, The good object between sun and earth depends where you are : either in solar system where Earth would be the best home, or far out of sun's neighboorhood where probably sun would become a better home reference. In the other case, where you select destination, this is obvious, you want as home only earth!
So, I don't really what is the best : the current solution, H for Sun, another one, where H is using for Sun and something like SHIFT+H for Earth, or a last one, automatic one, according where you are, an algorithm selects for you your home !? I don't know, then it would not be a user 's choice?

When you're out of solar system, you want to see home, or Jupiter (or anything else in solar system except sun itself), or you prepare yourself to go these destinations, then you press enter and write these names and nothing! Do they exist? Does Celestia recognize them? Ah, you've just remembered (because you've think a lot in the last time) that you have to enter sun instead. Then you restart again... But How to point Neptune, this is my next destination? The only solution is going first to sun and then in Neptune... Hooo! long stuffs for quick adventure! Would not be great and easy to enter just Jupiter whereas you're watching Acturus star, and goto home (or in other solar systems) (even if program is going to sun before and automatically to the planet finally)?

What about a general pop up menu (clicking on third mouse button for example) for universe and observer objects where you can quickly change own common properties? (for example Telescope view or not, magnitude limit with a local slider...)
I'm not sure to follow you on this one; the wheel (mouse) gives and optimal solution to travel; perhaps a key could change this function to FOV?

The mouse is a great tool to move in celestia, just only to move? I have posted an image that i've quickly done to illustrate how mouse could become very useful in my mind. It would be also a way to reduce the need of keyboard shortcuts for basics users (or even for the others?)
I draw quickly the image for the pop-up menu that, in my mind, appears after clicking on the wheel like a third mouse button. This is a menu where some functions, linked more or less to the observer, are listed and could be chosen on fly easily and quickly.
I have, at least, several reasons for this observer's menu (whose title is on blue background to distinguish it clearly from a classical pop-up menu from others objects like those of planets) :
-Users have in mind that for Celestia, they are an object call 'observer',
-Some basic functions get a quick access with mouse with out searching them in menu,
-Users have in mind that they have global proprieties, and changing them, change how they see universe and how universe is simulated by celestia,
-Mind is kept in space exploration using pop-up menus, more than going in menu which is more program stuff
-Easy to manipulate functions : For instance, when you want to change magnitude, you need a slider (and a text), no more. I think that you can't put slider in menu. That's why, i draw a new window, consider it as a tool windows with only minimum control and only those linked to magnitude ( for instance). I choose a blue transparent ballon window whereas I put a quick help/description of the current function and a link to an online help. Additionals features surely. It could be hidden or not... It sures this kind of stuff would not replace more advanced and complex observer panel available from top menu.
-Finally all would be below your hand!

(In this image, I use some functions that exist like field of view, and some others they probably don't :wink: )
Last edited by Imy on 13.03.2009, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #32by ElChristou » 13.03.2009, 15:45

Imy wrote:
it shouldn't be with several "levels".

For Sure, it would be the best idea. However, can we have as much information in a little window as we have in a larger one? Do you think that a lot star names (using for reference when you are in intersellar locations) would be readable enough in a thumb? Do that mean thumb is not a good solution? Thumb is a quick stuff and this is why it's interesting element. Thumb and your GPO could be the same stuff, only differents scale views : thumbs for a quick view, with few reference elements to locate (like only planet, only planet orbits and names for solar system, or only galaxy, not more), and a larger view few with more elements, grids... Could Celestia show sizeable space windows?

The thumb can be interesting because not too intrusive but I fear that as you pointed it's too limited in term of display. Perso I would keep one of the two other solution, or the split like GPO window or a full switch of the screen. Guys, would be nice to have more opinions. Tx. (and if you find this stuff useless, don't hesitate in telling why!)


Imy wrote:
-A difficult thing about first uses : why can't we select different objects and then change common properties like orbits viewed or not with mouse?
In what kind of use are you thinking of?

Everyone that uses a computer today, has already managed its own files in explorer. These are objects and everyone enjoys selecting easily severals with mouse (while pressing special keyboard button) and changing in "one click" each propriety (commons in selected objects). Surely, users discover Celestia understand that planets and moons are similar such objects. They decide to focus on only two moons of Jupiter's large moon system, they want to compare quickly they orbits and their trajectories for instance. They want only to show orbits of these two elements, and why not their own frames too? And they don't want learning and make script for only that!

Ok, it's true that a way to switch on on/off the orbits/marker per bodies can be utile. An example I run into not too far ago was with Cassini. If you have it selected with orbits on, you cannot see anymore the orbits of the moons because Cassini's orbit itself! (too much revolutions so the view is completely fill up with red orbits) In this case turning of Cassini's orbit would have been welcome...

Imy wrote:
That's means a "Show Home" feature?

Why not? All problem is knowing what is exactly our home ! Today, it's seems (using 'H') that Sun is our home and not Earth. However, Earth appears to me, more obvious home than hot Sun! But it's true that Sun is a better reference when you're out of solar system. Even in this case, it depends what user want to do : select home and no more, or goto home?
If you select home only, The good object between sun and earth depends where you are : either in solar system where Earth would be the best home, or far out of sun's neighboorhood where probably sun would become a better home reference. In the other case, where you select destination, this is obvious, you want as home only earth!
So, I don't really what is the best : the current solution, H for Sun, another one, where H is using for Sun and something like SHIFT+H for Earth, or a last one, automatic one, according where you are, an algorithm selects for you your home !? I don't know, then it would not be a user 's choice?

If a "Show Home" feature have to exist I guess it could be customized via config file. By default could be Earth, then the user could change it depending his need...

Imy wrote:When you're out of solar system, you want to see home, or Jupiter (or anything else in solar system except sun itself), or you prepare yourself to go these destinations, then you press enter and write these names and nothing! Do they exist? Does Celestia recognize them? Ah, you've just remembered (because you've think a lot in the last time) that you have to enter sun instead. Then you restart again... But How to point Neptune, this is my next destination? The only solution is going first to sun and then in Neptune... Hooo! long stuffs for quick adventure! Would not be great and easy to enter just Jupiter whereas you're watching Acturus star, and goto home (or in other solar systems) (even if program is going to sun before and automatically to the planet finally)?

This problem is related to how Celestia is coded. Only Chris can tell if selecting a body outside a system is feasible or not.

Imy wrote:
What about a general pop up menu (clicking on third mouse button for example) for universe and observer objects where you can quickly change own common properties? (for example Telescope view or not, magnitude limit with a local slider...)
I'm not sure to follow you on this one; the wheel (mouse) gives and optimal solution to travel; perhaps a key could change this function to FOV?

The mouse is a great tool to move in celestia, just only to move? I have posted an image that i've quickly done to illustrate how mouse could become very useful in my mind. It would be also a way to reduce the need of keyboard shortcuts for basics users (or even for the others?)
I draw quickly the image for the pop-up menu that, in my mind, appears after clicking on the wheel like a third mouse button. This is a menu where some functions, linked more or less to the observer, are listed and could be chosen on fly easily and quickly.
I have, at least, several reasons for this observer's menu (whose title is on blue background to distinguish it clearly from a classical pop-up menu from others objects like those of planets) :
-Users have in mind that for Celestia, they are an object call 'observer',
-Some basic functions get a quick access with mouse with out searching them in menu,
-Users have in mind that they have global proprieties, and changing them, change how they see universe and how universe is simulated by celestia,
-Mind is kept in space exploration using pop-up menus, more than going in menu which is more program stuff
-Easy to manipulate functions : For instance, when you want to change magnitude, you need a slider (and a text), no more. I think that you can't put slider in menu. That's why, i draw a new window, consider it as a tool windows with only minimum control and only those linked to magnitude ( for instance). I choose a blue transparent ballon window whereas I put a quick help/description of the current function and a link to an online help. Additionals features surely. It could be hidden or not... It sures this kind of stuff would not replace more advanced and complex observer panel available from top menu.
-Finally all would be below your hand!

(In this image, I use some functions that exist like field of view, and some others they probably don't :wink: )

Ok, the observer menu concept is new, and before continuing to detail such menu it would be great to have more opinion on it. Again, please Guys?
Now what I want to note here is the use of a second contextual menu; it could be an effective way to store more commands below the click and this is for sure a good way to simplify things.
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #33by chris » 13.03.2009, 22:08

ElChristou wrote:
Imy wrote:Everyone that uses a computer today, has already managed its own files in explorer. These are objects and everyone enjoys selecting easily severals with mouse (while pressing special keyboard button) and changing in "one click" each propriety (commons in selected objects). Surely, users discover Celestia understand that planets and moons are similar such objects. They decide to focus on only two moons of Jupiter's large moon system, they want to compare quickly they orbits and their trajectories for instance. They want only to show orbits of these two elements, and why not their own frames too? And they don't want learning and make script for only that!

Ok, it's true that a way to switch on on/off the orbits/marker per bodies can be utile. An example I run into not too far ago was with Cassini. If you have it selected with orbits on, you cannot see anymore the orbits of the moons because Cassini's orbit itself! (too much revolutions so the view is completely fill up with red orbits) In this case turning of Cassini's orbit would have been welcome...

The ability to disable or enable orbits per-object (instead of per object class) is useful and is already supported in Celestia via script. I agree with Imy that requiring the user to write a script just to toggle the orbit of one body is far from ideal. Some way to do it via the UI would be great. The solar system browser could be used for this. Multiple selections... maybe. The 'one selection' model is pretty entrenched in Celestia--there needs to be a damned good reason adding the extra UI complexity, and I'm not sure that this feature is it.

ElChristou wrote:
Imy wrote:
That's means a "Show Home" feature?

Why not? All problem is knowing what is exactly our home ! Today, it's seems (using 'H') that Sun is our home and not Earth. However, Earth appears to me, more obvious home than hot Sun! But it's true that Sun is a better reference when you're out of solar system. Even in this case, it depends what user want to do : select home and no more, or goto home?
If you select home only, The good object between sun and earth depends where you are : either in solar system where Earth would be the best home, or far out of sun's neighboorhood where probably sun would become a better home reference. In the other case, where you select destination, this is obvious, you want as home only earth!
So, I don't really what is the best : the current solution, H for Sun, another one, where H is using for Sun and something like SHIFT+H for Earth, or a last one, automatic one, according where you are, an algorithm selects for you your home !? I don't know, then it would not be a user 's choice?

If a "Show Home" feature have to exist I guess it could be customized via config file. By default could be Earth, then the user could change it depending his need...

I think that we should let users set a custom location for 'home.' But, a dedicated "Show Home" feature is unnecessary--the selection cursor already does that.

ElChristou wrote:
Imy wrote:When you're out of solar system, you want to see home, or Jupiter (or anything else in solar system except sun itself), or you prepare yourself to go these destinations, then you press enter and write these names and nothing! Do they exist? Does Celestia recognize them? Ah, you've just remembered (because you've think a lot in the last time) that you have to enter sun instead. Then you restart again... But How to point Neptune, this is my next destination? The only solution is going first to sun and then in Neptune... Hooo! long stuffs for quick adventure! Would not be great and easy to enter just Jupiter whereas you're watching Acturus star, and goto home (or in other solar systems) (even if program is going to sun before and automatically to the planet finally)?

This problem is related to how Celestia is coded. Only Chris can tell if selecting a body outside a system is feasible or not.

It's feasible, but not desirable in the completely general sense where *every* object in Celestia's catalog would be searched for a match. The context sensitivity can be a good thing. If I try to visit planet "c" in an extrasolar planetary system with just one planet, I'd rather have Celestia tell me that the object couldn't be found rather than select a planet in some distant solar system. A good compromise would be to always search for a match in the Solar System, regardless of where the observer is.

Imy wrote:What about a general pop up menu (clicking on third mouse button for example) for universe and observer objects where you can quickly change own common properties? (for example Telescope view or not, magnitude limit with a local slider...)
I'm not sure to follow you on this one; the wheel (mouse) gives and optimal solution to travel; perhaps a key could change this function to FOV?

Not all mice have a third button. Plus, this would be a nonstandard and unexpected use for the third button on those mice that do support them. I'd rather have a popup menu activated by clicking on some tab onscreen and/or pressing a keyboard shortcut.

--Chris

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ElChristou
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #34by ElChristou » 13.03.2009, 22:35

chris wrote:Not all mice have a third button. Plus, this would be a nonstandard and unexpected use for the third button on those mice that do support them. I'd rather have a popup menu activated by clicking on some tab onscreen and/or pressing a keyboard shortcut.

Chris, question: Imagine the right click; once the contextual menu is displayed, could we switch to more features by pressing a key? (you press a key (ctrl, whatever) and the options in the contextual menu change, you release the key and you go back to default options)
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #35by Guckytos » 14.03.2009, 08:47

Imy wrote:
When you're out of solar system, you want to see home, or Jupiter (or anything else in solar system except sun itself), or you prepare yourself to go these destinations, then you press enter and write these names and nothing! Do they exist? Does Celestia recognize them? Ah, you've just remembered (because you've think a lot in the last time) that you have to enter sun instead. Then you restart again... But How to point Neptune, this is my next destination? The only solution is going first to sun and then in Neptune... Hooo! long stuffs for quick adventure! Would not be great and easy to enter just Jupiter whereas you're watching Acturus star, and goto home (or in other solar systems) (even if program is going to sun before and automatically to the planet finally)?


Hi Imy,

I am just a bit confused what you exactly mean by this.

Code: Select all

Enter/Jupiter/Enter --> GoTo?

And then if it not works

Code: Select all

Enter/Sol/Enter --> GoTo
Enter/Jupiter/Enter --> GoTo?


Or did you mean the following command sequence?

Code: Select all

Enter/Sol/Jupiter/Enter --> GoTo


I mean, if you are out of the solar system the second command sequence is completely sensible and should stay as it is.
I mean it's like you enter a cab in New York and tell the driver "Via Doloroso and make it quick". If you are really lucky, the street exists in New York and is where you wanted to go. But if it is in another city, you would also have to tell first the city and then the street. :wink:

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #36by Imy » 14.03.2009, 11:00

>Command line

I understand what you mean. In google earth, you write a name, and this is the computer which searches and suggests you different meanings ; then you select yours. Celestia does a bit that : when you start with a letter, the program shows you solutions starting with this letter...
Thanks to you, I've discovered a new feature ; I didn't know that you can write sol/jupiter ! This is rather interesting, but not really obvious, or then if you have an example in demo maybe?

It's feasible, but not desirable in the completely general sense where *every* object in Celestia's catalog would be searched for a match. The context sensitivity can be a good thing. If I try to visit planet "c" in an extrasolar planetary system with just one planet, I'd rather have Celestia tell me that the object couldn't be found rather than select a planet in some distant solar system. A good compromise would be to always search for a match in the Solar System, regardless of where the observer is.

Chris, I understand that you can't search in all catalogs. Even if we begin with j for jupiter, we have to only search in j list which element it could be. But that would mean, that all catalogs are re-written in an one alphabetical ordered search file...
I like the idea to consider system solar as a default research element whereever you are.
The main problem with command line is the lack of feedback from celestia, no quick message to inform users how is its commands. This would improve interactivity between user and program state!


>Show home function

If a "Show Home" feature have to exist I guess it could be customized via config file. By default could be Earth, then the user could change it depending his need...
I think all users should have in mind that they can change this in a parameter panel instead in a technical file, shouldn't they?

I think that we should let users set a custom location for 'home.' But, a dedicated "Show Home" feature is unnecessary--the selection cursor already does that.

It can be more complex than only letting users set a name for a home ; it could be an automatic algorithm depends of observer position as I suggest. Users would have to choice different method to consider home then.

What do you mean by "the selection cursor already does that"?

A show home function would be an interesting candidat for my observer's menu :wink:


>Multiple object selection

The ability to disable or enable orbits per-object (instead of per object class) is useful and is already supported in Celestia via script. I agree with Imy that requiring the user to write a script just to toggle the orbit of one body is far from ideal. Some way to do it via the UI would be great. The solar system browser could be used for this. Multiple selections... maybe. The 'one selection' model is pretty entrenched in Celestia--there needs to be a damned good reason adding the extra UI complexity, and I'm not sure that this feature is it.

As I discovered making my script about cycle key (for showing labels and orbits), orbit management is not as easy as it could be thougth. Orbit management, like label managment need you to considerer different levels:
-each element selection (or group of element)
-Class group : that means you want to show/hide all planet orbits for instance
-General management, hidding (or showing again; that mean you have to use memory to save or read last pattern) current orbit (or label) showed pattern
-Erase or show all orbits whatever element, whatever class, whatever everything.

Has Celestia to precise that to the users with an orbit or label special sub menu?

What about only adding a check box in each object contextual menu too?


>About Global position overview

The thumb can be interesting because not too intrusive but I fear that as you pointed it's too limited in term of display. Perso I would keep one of the two other solution, or the split like GPO window or a full switch of the screen. Guys, would be nice to have more opinions. Tx. (and if you find this stuff useless, don't hesitate in telling why!)

I wonder if thumbs would not be interesting also for script. I still consider thumb as a light gpo!
The full screen option, doesn't allow to compare the observing view and location view. You're watching earth and moon in 3D classical view and want to see this duo (from top) to see their trajectory for instance in real time. for this reason, i think full screen would not be a default solution (only a secondary one, the user would choose).

>About Observer menu

Not all mice have a third button. Plus, this would be a nonstandard and unexpected use for the third button on those mice that do support them. I'd rather have a popup menu activated by clicking on some tab onscreen and/or pressing a keyboard shortcut.

(the final choice could be an user's choice in a parameter panel)
It's strange : more and more mice have (will have) a wheel, and the wheel is the third button. For those, who have not such mouse, they would not access to this menu, which is not important for celestia runs. However, even in this case, using a key would allow them to access to this feature. What standard is for the real three-button mouse ( with no wheel)? Particularly for astronomy program?

I believe that such menu wouldn't be available only through mouse manipulations (combining or not with or key pressing). I think a sensitive area on screen would forget the fact that such menu has to be a "below hand" function!

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #37by ElChristou » 14.03.2009, 15:17

Imy wrote:
Chris wrote:I think that we should let users set a custom location for 'home.' But, a dedicated "Show Home" feature is unnecessary--the selection cursor already does that.

What do you mean by "the selection cursor already does that"?

I think that what means Chris is if you are in whatever point of the galaxy, if you have the selection cursor enabled, pressing h will show you where is Sol... (or the direct cursor, or the arrow at the edge of the screen showing the direction)
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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #38by chris » 14.03.2009, 19:05

ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:Not all mice have a third button. Plus, this would be a nonstandard and unexpected use for the third button on those mice that do support them. I'd rather have a popup menu activated by clicking on some tab onscreen and/or pressing a keyboard shortcut.

Chris, question: Imagine the right click; once the contextual menu is displayed, could we switch to more features by pressing a key? (you press a key (ctrl, whatever) and the options in the contextual menu change, you release the key and you go back to default options)

It should be possible to do this in Qt4--never actually tried it before, though.

--Chris

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #39by Chuft-Captain » 15.03.2009, 10:18

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, (so apologies if this is off topic) but speaking of context menus...there's been some recent discussion I think about multiple infoURL's.

I was pondering that infoURL's (whether there's one or many) need to somehow display the destination before you click on it. This botheres me even when thee's only one URL as is the current situation.
(For example, in firefox if you hover the cursor over a hyperlink, the URL address is displayed in the status bar) .

IMO, Celestia needs to emulate this behaviour in some fashion (especially if there are to be multiple URLs).

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Re: New content and interactivity in next Celestia

Post #40by ElChristou » 15.03.2009, 11:17

Chuft-Captain wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread for this, (so apologies if this is off topic) but speaking of context menus...there's been some recent discussion I think about multiple infoURL's.

I was pondering that infoURL's (whether there's one or many) need to somehow display the destination before you click on it. This botheres me even when thee's only one URL as is the current situation.
(For example, in firefox if you hover the cursor over a hyperlink, the URL address is displayed in the status bar) .

IMO, Celestia needs to emulate this behaviour in some fashion (especially if there are to be multiple URLs).

If the Url get a title is there a real need for the whole Url? (I mean a title can be short and enough clear to show where the url goes, no?)
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